[Tobus]

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A college degree is a note from your teacher that says you're smart.

No it isn't, and that assertion is patently absurd.

A degree is a document that is the culmination of many years worth of studying and testing to pre-established academic standards (as determined by thousands upon thousands of professors, accreditation boards, textbook authors, legislative minimums, etc.). Your statement implies that a degree is just one person's opinion of how smart you are. It isn't.

Like I said before, a degree from an accredited university is a universally accepted standard of ability. It ain't just an arbitrary opinion of a teacher.

To earn a degree, one must prove one's ability to learn and apply specific knowledge to these standards. Many schools intentionally require their students to take extremely difficult core curriculum classes designed to "weed out" those who cannot apply themselves to the extent required. These "weed out courses" are well known among those who survived them; many students don't survive them.

Beyond core curriculum, the difficulty level increases with upper level specialty electives. As an example, in engineering school my weed-out courses were things like physics, electrics and optics, several chemistry courses, thermodynamics, and the like. Some of these courses have absolutely nothing to do with being a structural engineer. But they successfully weeded out the people who couldn't apply themselves with enough discipline. And they also made for a more rounded education across various scientific disciplines. Essentially, these courses made sure only the best got through, and prepared us for the even harder upper-level courses like advanced structural design, environmental engineering, etc.

But again, these courses are designed specifically to not only test the student on his or her absorption of the material, but his or her ability to learn and apply knowledge to real-world design examples. Many hours are spent in laboratories proving theories (my favorite was always building mock-ups and loading them to failure).

In a nutshell, your attempt to minimize higher education by comparing it to a note from a teacher is so incorrect, I have a hard time taking it as anything but sour grapes. If you failed to find good employment with your archaeology degree, it's probably because archaeology isn't a field that's in demand. Blame your choice of degree, but don't blame all of higher education.

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A degree is not the end all and be all of success.

I never claimed it was. We all know that people can be successful without a higher education if they try hard enough. That's not even the argument here. The argument is over the various statements made by you guys that higher education is worthless. And that's simply not true.

You're engaging in a fallacious argument here. You're claiming that one can be successful without a college degree and then construing that to mean that college degrees are worthless. One does not follow the other. And in fact, college degrees are required in certain fields. You simply cannot be successful in the field without the degree. Engineering is my example; an accredited degree is a requirement for professional licensure, and professional licensure is a requirement to practice engineering. The same is true of lawyers, doctors, etc. You can be just as smart and knowledgeable in a subject as anyone else, but without that formal degree, you will never be able to legally practice. And BTW, I'm not arguing that this is necessarily the way things should be, but it's they way they are.

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Because of my age when I was asked if I had a degree, I said yes. I do not have a degree. No one ever checked and I got good paying jobs for ten years.

I don't know what particular jobs those were that you held, but you basically engaged in fraudulent, deceptive behavior. I don't know why you'd want to brag about it.

[VXbinaca]

Tobus you mis the point of what he said. Yes it's fraudulent and really should be looked down upon, but, what merit do they have (degree's). They are pieces of paper. Thats all. Paper that in a lot of cases, I could learn the knowledge required to attain it elsewhere for significantly less money or free.

[Mike]

VXbinaca, on Aug 21 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

Tobus you mis the point of what he said. Yes it's fraudulent and really should be looked down upon, but, what merit do they have (degree's). They are pieces of paper. Thats all. Paper that in a lot of cases, I could learn the knowledge required to attain it elsewhere for significantly less money or free.

That's the thing, VX. The degree you get online or from some shit 2-week program at a college advertised during Jerry Springer isn't going to carry the weight of one from an accredited college that not only shows that you attained the knowledge, but that you committed yourself to going to class for a few years, jumping through the college hoops and all of that. It's not just a testament of your knowledge, but also of your character in that you are capable of living up to the committment that getting an accredited degree requires.

[VXbinaca]

Right and 100 percent of the people experiences in a given field are the same. I'm not talking about comparing pursuit of Game Boy degree's to the pursuit Nucluler (lol) Physics degree's. I'm saying within the field.

Example: Affirmative Action. One student of a protected group getting favors and short cuts that others do not in the same field of study, hell, even the same class. It's rife in college and it happens all the time. Does that not cheapen and really when you get down to it, question the legitimacy of that paper?

If that is going to be the case can we trust that paper still?

(an even better question is: does the practice of AA in college not encourage the spread of racism?)

This post has been edited by VXbinaca: 21 August 2009 - 12:26 PM

[Mike]

You're moving on to a whole 'nother argument now. AA is a completely different factor in itself.

Let's say you were in an accident, and the only two people on the scene happened to be recent graduates from medical school. You need an artery sewn up with the quickness or else you're dead. One guy took some online classes and went to some other classes at Bill's Fish & Chips & School of Medicine, the other guy has his degree from Johns Hopkins. Ignore the small chance of likelihood here, please. Even if you like eating fish and chips, who would you choose to sew that artery for ya?

[Doc]

VXbinaca, on Aug 21 2009, 01:24 PM, said:

Right and 100 percent of the people experiences in a given field are the same. I'm not talking about comparing pursuit of Game Boy degree's to the pursuit Nucluler (lol) Physics degree's. I'm saying within the field.

Example: Affirmative Action. One student of a protected group getting favors and short cuts that others do not in the same field of study, hell, even the same class. It's rife in college and it happens all the time. Does that not cheapen and really when you get down to it, question the legitimacy of that paper?

If that is going to be the case can we trust that paper still?

(an even better question is: does the practice of AA in college not encourage the spread of racism?)

You haven't attended College, how do you know such things exist?

[Geo]

VXbinaca, on Aug 21 2009, 10:24 AM, said:

Example: Affirmative Action. One student of a protected group getting favors and short cuts that others do not in the same field of study, hell, even the same class. It's rife in college and it happens all the time. Does that not cheapen and really when you get down to it, question the legitimacy of that paper?

You're confusing AA with students with athletic scholarships.

YEEEAAAAAH! Sixth-year senior!

[VXbinaca]

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You're confusing AA with students with athletic scholarships.

Theres no confusion about it it's the same thing.

[Tobus]

VXbinaca, on Aug 21 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

Tobus you mis the point of what he said. Yes it's fraudulent and really should be looked down upon, but, what merit do they have (degree's). They are pieces of paper. Thats all. Paper that in a lot of cases, I could learn the knowledge required to attain it elsewhere for significantly less money or free.

My guess is that the jobs he held with his imaginary degree were not the type of jobs that depended heavily on the degree to begin with. Any job where the degree is critical to getting the job, they will verify it by asking for a transcript.

On the same subject, though, the employer was an idiot for not following up. Taking someone's word on a degree or experience is just foolish.

[Doc]

Tobus, on Aug 21 2009, 02:04 PM, said:

My guess is that the jobs he held with his imaginary degree were not the type of jobs that depended heavily on the degree to begin with. Any job where the degree is critical to getting the job, they will verify it by asking for a transcript.

On the same subject, though, the employer was an idiot for not following up. Taking someone's word on a degree or experience is just foolish.

And to add....in some fields, such as the one I am working on, a Degree simply qualifies you to test before a governing board, which you must pass, even if you graduated Summa, before you can legally call yourself a member of that profession, or practice it.

BTW, Tobus, sincere congrats on the P.E. that's an attainment of which you can be rightfully proud !!

[zen]

Tobus, on Aug 21 2009, 11:58 AM, said:

No it isn't, and that assertion is patently absurd.

Like I said before, a degree from an accredited university is a universally accepted standard of ability. It ain't just an arbitrary opinion of a teacher.

In a nutshell, your attempt to minimize higher education by comparing it to a note from a teacher is so incorrect, I have a hard time taking it as anything but sour grapes. If you failed to find good employment with your archaeology degree, it's probably because archaeology isn't a field that's in demand. Blame your choice of degree, but don't blame all of higher education.

Whoa! Slow down there cowboy. I was over-simplifying to make a point.... which is.... if you have a degree it means that you were smart enough and persistent enough to wade through 4 years of course material. A degree of *any* type opens doors which would be closed otherwise. (I was being a cheeky monkey.)

It so happens that my archaeology degree has served me well in precisely this capacity. I found gainful employment immediately and by most standards would be considered "wealthy" right now. I run/manage/own several companies in disparate fields and NOT ONCE has anyone asked me to define the characteristics of Moche pottery or explain why Clovis points are so significant in pre-columbian history.

I have nothing but positive things to say about seeking higher education on a personal level. If you'll read through my previous posts you see that I intend to finish a PhD in Archaeology so it will be easier for me to do fieldwork and get published when I retire.... which hopefully will be sooner rather than later.

So there.

[Tobus]

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And to add....in some fields, such as the one I am working on, a Degree simply qualifies you to test before a governing board, which you must pass, even if you graduated Summa, before you can legally call yourself a member of that profession, or practice it.

Yup. Some careers require the degree simply to begin the journey. My profession is much like yours in that regard. A degree is only a prerequisite. It has to be followed by a minimum of 4 years of documented engineering experience under another P.E. And even then, you still have to apply to the state board and provide all sorts of documentation, just get approved to take the exam. Then the exam must be passed. So at a minimum, it takes 4 years of college plus 4 years in the industry to even be eligible to take the exam.

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BTW, Tobus, sincere congrats on the P.E. that's an attainment of which you can be rightfully proud !!

Thanks. It's been almost a year since I took the exam, and it was by far the most difficult thing I've done in my life. Myself and my twin brother are the only two P.E.s that I personally know who passed it on the first try. I can think of at least 5 other people I know who failed it on the first (and in some cases, the second and third) try.

I'm not fond of the idea that government regulates my profession so tightly. While I'm proud of my accomplishment, I wish the same level of professional status were recognized via private industry standards instead of being controlled by government.

[purple]

Tobus, on Aug 21 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

I don't know what particular jobs those were that you held, but you basically engaged in fraudulent, deceptive behavior. I don't know why you'd want to brag about it.

I have been busy so sorry I did not get back into this earlier. As far as fraudulent or deceptive behavior, I gives a damn. I made my money and they were not smart enough to check. The thing is without spending years and loads of money, I did the job and got paid well for it. I worked right along side of people who slaved away in school only to not have any common sense. I have seen many people with degrees get jobs and did not understand shit. They had to be trained by people without. I am not saying that this is your case obviously you have a specific career that has its use of your education. There are many companies out there that hire outside the realm of what the degree is obtained for. My wifes cousin dropped out of college first year I think to make more money than all of us. Does some work for IBM on computers. Works from anywhere in the country. Not every degree brings money, security or even the promise of a job.
You have educated veterans that are coming home and do not even have jobs. Its not always about the degree its about making up your mind that you do not always have to be on the bottom of the list.
Very educated and fucked people out of money. http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/doc...s_20081111.html

This post has been edited by purple: 21 August 2009 - 04:43 PM

[Tobus]

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Not every degree brings money, security or even the promise of a job.

My point exactly!

[Doc]

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have been busy so sorry I did not get back into this earlier. As far as fraudulent or deceptive behavior, I gives a damn. I made my money and they were not smart enough to check.

Hmmmmm......They offer a job, and as part of the requirement, you were supposed to have a degree, but decieved them......

Contract for something, take all the money offered on that contract, and then intentionally provide less than what the terms of the contract call for?

Are those libertarian principles on display?

[zen]

Doc, on Aug 21 2009, 04:57 PM, said:

Hmmmmm......They offer a job, and as part of the requirement, you were supposed to have a degree, but decieved them......

Contract for something, take all the money offered on that contract, and then intentionally provide less than what the terms of the contract call for?

Are those libertarian principles on display?

Nope. Government standards.

[Doc]

zen, on Aug 21 2009, 06:09 PM, said:

Nope. Government standards.

So purple's ethics are at the same level as the Governments?

This post has been edited by Doc: 21 August 2009 - 05:17 PM

[Doc]

Doc, on Aug 21 2009, 06:11 PM, said:

So purple's ethics are at the same level as the Governments?

Please scratch this entire line of thinking.

Do reason for me to be bashing Purple.

Sorry.

[Puck T. Smith]

VXbinaca, on Aug 20 2009, 04:22 PM, said:

Sorry Nid, but colleges need to be burned to the ground along with major cities. There isn't a thing I couldn't learn from there thats not also available in a public library.

They're a scam. And they're designed to get people in debt with little to show for it. One only needs to look at a university/college systems questionable relationships with student loan providers. You see it time and time again and HNIC will only shield them from it (unless one of his af-am voters gets up and whines about it).

Pretty much, this.

I was a high school drop out who got a GED in the Air Force. After I got out I managed to get an Associates Degree from a community college. That would have pretty much been a waste except I was fortunate enough to get exposed to three things in the process:

1) Basic philosophy, including a general survey course of all the "great" philosophers and "great" ideas and a solid introduction to formal logic and exposure to the common (and perennial) fallacies.

2) A general survey course of ancient history from the late-neolithic period through the fall of Rome in the West.

3) An introduction to literature in the form of Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Twain, Steinbeck, etc.

My actual education and degree got me nothing, actually, but those three things, which should be covered by middle school, equipped me to educate myself. An advanced degree is a badge that you are either a docile conformist or an amoral predator with expensive skills and entrenched connections.

Not that I'm a bitter old man or anything.

[Plumber Dave]

When my son was in 5th grade he told me he wanted to be a plumber. I told him great he could start right now, you don't need much more than a 5th grade education to be a plumber. He gave me a real funny look and said maybe he should stay in school. I said yeah, maybe you should go to college and get a degree in engineering so you have an idea of how buildings should go together. He said yeah college is probably a good idea. Hah! Reverse psychology and it worked. Usually my kids see through that ploy.

I understand purples' point of view. I've seen lots of prints that would not work the way the architect/mechanical engineer drew them up. It should probably be a requirement for these guys to be part of the building process for at least one building before they start drawing them up. But then again you wouldn't want a guy in the operating room to tell you no he isn't a doctor, but he stayed at a holiday inn express last night.